At least green means go
This week's Pub Notes in Flagpole brings some attention to those security cameras installed to keep tabs on folks who run red lights. Now, as Pete notes to some extent, it seems patenly unfair to give someone a ticket for running a light which had only been red for 0.84 seconds.
Furthermore, it seems kinda unfair to tell someone that a yellow light is the same thing as a red light as one can see quite quite clearly that they are two distinctly different things. A yellow light signals caution and a red light, meaning complete stop, is on the way shortly. To penalize someone for going through a light which does not require complete stop, or for that matter hasn't even occured yet, seems to be a rather wrongheaded way of enforcing the law.
Furthermore, it seems kinda unfair to tell someone that a yellow light is the same thing as a red light as one can see quite quite clearly that they are two distinctly different things. A yellow light signals caution and a red light, meaning complete stop, is on the way shortly. To penalize someone for going through a light which does not require complete stop, or for that matter hasn't even occured yet, seems to be a rather wrongheaded way of enforcing the law.
posted by Jmac at 6:20 PM
15 Comments:
I'm hoping that there is some sort of joke or sarcasm that I'm missing since I tend to be a bit humor-challenged. But taking it at face value, this is one case where there is nothing even remotely unfair. The light had been red for 0.84 seconds before the car had even entered the intersection and the light had changed to yellow 3.75 seconds before it went red so the driver had 4.59 seconds to react to the yellow light. If you pull out a stopwatch and let it run for 4.5 seconds, you see that it is a really long time.
I think Pete got it right in his assessment that he got busted and he deserved it. This is exactly the type of case that we have the red light cameras for.
Fair enough, Pete hones up.
But my larger concern involved the statement from the judge who said that you had to stop on yellow, and if you didn't you could be ticketed for that. Doesn't that greatly deviate from the actual definition of yellow?
There have been numerous times where I've been traveling the speed limit, a light in the distance has turned yellow, and stopping in time would have resulted in me braking way too hard and possibly endangering the folks behind me.
Arguably you shouldn't speed through a yellow light, but there also needs to be some flexibility, shouldn't there?
We are in complete agreement that a yellow is NOT the same as a red light. Using the same criteria I used above, I don't think that you should ever enter an intersection on a red but there will be many, many times to do so on yellow because it would require unsafe braking to stop.
Rich
But my larger concern involved the statement from the judge who said that you had to stop on yellow, and if you didn't you could be ticketed for that. Doesn't that greatly deviate from the actual definition of yellow?
Note that Pete is referring to the late Hon. Preston Almand, who held the position now occupied by the magistrate judge. Pete's reference to him is sort of an inside joke, in that Judge Almand never met a ticket he didn't like. He had an expansive view of the rights and duties of the police department. The outcome would have been the same if Pete had argued that the light was green.
I wouldn't get too work up over any "holdings" of Judge Almand.
Sounds to me like Pete needs a traffic calming device.
Hi JMAC: I hate to be an ass, but if you are driving and see a light in the distance that has turned yellow and can't stop in time, you're probably driving too fast :-) The speed limit is usually set for specific distances, otherwise it would get lowered the closer you came to the intersection. The law says that you must maintain control of your vehicle at all times, and that sometimes includes driving at less than the posted limit (OK, so I'm an ass!).
I have to second the previous anonymous comments and add my favorite pet peeve:
People should be taught a rudimentary lesson on vehicle dynamics before they are allowed to operate a motor vehicle of any kind. To the point of this discussion, different vehicles have different stopping characteristics and must be operated accordingly. How some folks fail to see that a big SUV or pickup truck requires a greater distance to stop safely is just a mystery to me. A Mini can stop much quicker than an Escalade. Vehicle weight, brake systems, suspensions, tires, road conditions, and driver skill levels (both yours and your best guess as to those of the other drivers around you) should all be factored.
How do people not get that?! I think all driver education courses should require basic vehicle dynamics as the pre-requisite to getting into the left front seat of any vehicle.
Anybody who has ever seriously raced any kind of motor vehicle never drives like the typical American driver because they know too much about how quickly things can go wrong - even if you are doing everything perfectly.
If you don't know the stopping capabilities of your vehicle, please don't drive it. Thanks!
Al
BTW - sorry for the "anon" but, my blogger ID thingie blew up many months ago so, this is my first post to any blog since about January. And, no thanks, I don't plan to try to fix it. ;-)
This topic, the one on speed mitigation in residential neighborhoods reminded me, and Al's comment reminded me of this. I am from Illinois and simply cannot believe the extent to which the hands of the police are tied in this state when it comes to enforcing speed limits. In Illinois the police are free to patrol in unmarked cars like Mustangs or any other car that they might have confiscated and there may be no lights on top of the vehicle. This means that you can't count on braking when you see a Crown Vic or Impala or other standard police cruiser. Also, they are under no obligation to remain in plain sight. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in Georgia police are required to have their lights on top of the vehicle for traffic enforcement and they are not allowed to do things like hide behind billboards or be off the road enough to be out of sight. After taking a trip to Illinois and back this summer, a trip that took me through Tennessee, Kentucky, Illinois, Missouri, and Georgia, I can honestly say that it shows. The second that you cross from Tennessee into Georgia, the driving becomes insane. People speed in every state but it seems that Georgia is the only place where people speed with a sense of impunity. I know that a lot of these restrictions date back to a time where southern states were trying to move beyond the perception that they were speed traps and did things like target out of state drivers, but I think that the time has come to untie the hands of the police in order to make our highways and streets safer. Nothing slows drivers down more than a sense that they might actually be pulled over for speeding.
"they are not allowed to do things like hide behind billboards or be off the road enough to be out of sight."
In Georgia, stationary police cars running radar/ laser have to be visible to oncoming traffic for at least 500ft. This applies to municipal and county cops, but not to State Patrol. The reason for this law is to stop municipalities using speed traps for revenue generation. If the cop is in motion then the 500ft standard does not apply.
Thanks for clarifying that it doesn't apply to the GSP.
Locally I can think of a couple of examples where stepped up enforcement had led me to be very careful of my speed. In July there was a concerted effort to slow down traffic on Prince Avenue with motorcycle officers hanging out near what used to be Prince Avenue Baptist Church. The second one is the Loop between Atlanta Highway and Tallassee Road where the motorcycle cops are frequently present. I am much more careful on both stretches of road now that I have learned that there is a reasonable likelihood of a police presence.
what if everybody just drove safely to begin with rather than only when they think that they might get busted?
I know that's a radical notion and, call me crazy but, suppose everybody just got together and decided to solve the problem without having to have a police officer for every 1.5 vehicles on the road?
Power to the people!
Al
The law says that you must maintain control of your vehicle at all times, and that sometimes includes driving at less than the posted limit ...
Listen, I'm not necessarily in disagreement with any of you fine folks here, but really think about and consider this ...
Under this little scenario I could be driving the legal speed limit and legally be traveling through an intersection on a yellow light ... and still be ticketed.
Honestly, that's all I'm pointing out here. If 35 mph is 'too fast' as you approach the intersection, then why even make that the limit? If you are going to set a possible scenario where someone can be penalized for obeying the law, then something doesn't seem right.
I don't think anyone here would argue that we should be driving recklessly, but the problem involves legal behavior possibly being punished.
"Under this little scenario I could be driving the legal speed limit and legally be traveling through an intersection on a yellow light ... and still be ticketed."
If you are already in the intersection when the light turns yellow you are OK; if you enter it once the light has turned yellow then that's illegal. The yellow light is an advisory as to what's going to happen in the next few seconds.
btw, in most other countries, in the cycle of going from red to green they have a yellow in the middle to tell drivers that the light is about to turn green -- the cycle is red, followed by simultaneous red and yellow, followed by green. For the light changing from green to red it's simply green, then yellow on its own, then red.
Has anyone else heard that the striped section of turn lane corresponding (on your left as you enter an intersection - think of 316 as an example) is designed to a specific length?
My understanding is this length correlates to the timing of the yellow light - basically, if you are as close to the intersection where the striped turn lanes begin, you can safely make it through if the light turns yellow. This is calculated to correspond with the speed limit.
I've tried it out a few times on 316 - if it's yellow and I'm already into where the turn lanes split off, I can make it through without running a red. Anything outside of that, you're running it.
David
Also, they are under no obligation to remain in plain sight. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in Georgia police are required to have their lights on top of the vehicle for traffic enforcement and they are not allowed to do things like hide behind billboards or be off the road enough to be out of sight.
Some of these restrictions only apply to the local police and only if they are running radar. There is no requirement that the lights be on top. I'm not sure about ACC, but I believe they have some "slicks" in traffic enforcement. The surrounding counties certainly do.
Vehicles used in traffic enforcement have to be "two toned", but this is very liberally interpreted. If the agency name is printed on the side in a different color than the primary vehicle color, then the legal standard is met.
Other states don't have our rich and colorful history of speed traps.
The above restrictions (except for the two toned) only apply to the use of radar. Radar can only be used on primary roads at sites approved by the state (another legacy of our history). HOWEVER, as I noted in another post, the post, the police were very successfully making speeding cases 50 years or so before radar came on the seen. If radar (or other electronic devices) is not involved, the police can pretty much do what they want.
They are pretty much gone, but there used to white lines on the interstates at overpasses, where the GSP would sit with a stopwatch.
By the way, it should be noted that the red light cameras capture digital images of vehicles that enter an intersection after the light has turned red. Vehicles that enter an intersection on yellow and are in the intersection as the light turns red are not recorded.
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