Flight ...
Um, silly question, but ... how is it the Athens Young Women's Christian Organization if it moves to Oconee County?
And is it just me or is a tad insulting that the YWCO is packing up and heading across the county line? Why are we inconviencing those 900 folks in Athens-Clarke County who attend the YWCO on Research Drive?
"This facility is 25 years old and needs renovation," (YWCO Executive Director Kitty Mehren) said. "And there is a big market (in Oconee) for families and children, and that is our market."
I understand the need to get a new space, and I understand the need to reach out to a growing market in Oconee County ... but does that mean you completely turn your back on the membership in Athens-Clarke County? Does that also mean there are no families and children in Athens-Clarke County?
And is it just me or is a tad insulting that the YWCO is packing up and heading across the county line? Why are we inconviencing those 900 folks in Athens-Clarke County who attend the YWCO on Research Drive?
"This facility is 25 years old and needs renovation," (YWCO Executive Director Kitty Mehren) said. "And there is a big market (in Oconee) for families and children, and that is our market."
I understand the need to get a new space, and I understand the need to reach out to a growing market in Oconee County ... but does that mean you completely turn your back on the membership in Athens-Clarke County? Does that also mean there are no families and children in Athens-Clarke County?
posted by Jmac at 10:05 AM
52 Comments:
In case you haven't noticed, Prince Avenue Baptist Church won't be on Prince Avenue anymore.
Athens Academy has never been in Athens. That's always been a mystery to me. Times change. When Athens Academy was started, it's motto could have been "Oconee County, good enough for our seg school, not good enough to live in".
I agree completely. They're turning their backs on all the eastside residents who've supported them for 25 years or so. They say they looked for property on the eastside, but couldn't find any. Yeah, right. They just want the big bucks in Oconee. It's ironic -- years ago, they withdrew from the national YWCA because they didn't want to integrate. That's why they're the YWCO. Now they're fleeing to a whiter county.
This is the kind of provincial nonsense that is killing Athens.
What kind of knucklehead cares where the county line is? To answer my own question: it's usually the guy who's watching the stuff he wants move to the other side of it.
Silly. Childish. But, oh, so typically Athenian.
What kind of knucklehead cares where the county line is?
Those who, all of a sudden, have a 15 to 20 minute commute on their hand just to get to the YWCO. Listen, I'm all for supporting them expanding in Oconee County (truth be told, the growth out there is substantial enough to support one), but it's ridiculous to move your entire operations out there.
This is the kind of provincial nonsense that is killing Athens.
I didn't realize we were struggling at all ...
My wife was a member at the YWCO for a couple of years, and it really was in poor shape. And they really did try, to talk to the owner, to find new space but had trouble doing so. The whole place almost closed down a couple of times. The eastside residents who "supported" it weren't doing so enough to give it the resources it needed to stay open on the east side. This decision has been at least a few years in the making.
All of this seems perfectly predictable. When enough of their patrons move to Oconee, the businesses are sure to follow.
No one wants to talk openly about the issue, but it is definitely a white/wealth flight pattern. And it's not going to stop unless and until the policies responsible for the flight are changed.
If you want integrated schools (racially and socioeconomically) rather than neighborhood schools that reflect the segregated character of the neighborhoods you are going to have white/wealth flight.
And if you insist on limiting family friendly low density housing development, families will simply leapfrog to a more accommodating jurisdiction.
And they really did try, to talk to the owner, to find new space but had trouble doing so.
Uhh, ummm, the YWCO is the owner.
Whether they move or not is really not an issue to me, as I'm neither Y nor W, and probably barely C, definitely not O. However the point should not be missed that what is facilitating the move is the incredible commercial value of their land in ACC. Just please God, don't let it end up being more multi-family housing.
Interesting is that the management finds a need for after school programs in a county with about a quarter of the enrollment of ACC.
I don't know that I see the move as "insulting". I think it is a sign of the shift of middle class dollars from Clarke to Oconee County, and the continued movement of the services (profit and non-profit) that target that market.
Looking at the "big picture" you just have to wonder how relevant the people that fund the YWCO find the discussion which has dominated the ACC commission for the last couple of months, which has been whether to fix the price of drink and drown drinks after 11:00 p.m.
In all fairness to the Commission, the alcohol issue has been driven by changes in state law and then ACC staff's using that opportunity to load up on the alcohol ordinance to try to address some issues they see as important downtown and elsewhere. If you have been following the issue, the Commission has gradually been whittling away many of the things that got put in the staff-written alcohol ordinance.
If you have been following the issue, the Commission has gradually been whittling away many of the things that got put in the staff-written alcohol ordinance.
Oh yeah. I've been following it.
Read today's ABH article about the discussion over regulating doorpeople (ABH is not PC, bad ABH). This is one of those really good ideas that to me seems to be totally unworkable.
There were a couple of statements that made no sense to me. " Right now there's no accountability on the door person," Lusk said. Huh? So for what are they being cited?
Likewise "would allow police to bring civil charges against them for allowing underage drinkers into bars". What is a "civil charge"? I suspect it means a proceeding to revoke the permit that allows them to be employed. Who is going to prosecute and hear this "civil proceeding". The city judge that is already complaining about not having enough staff or room? Talk about herding cats, can you imagine the trying to round up all the principals and witnesses.
I also have serious doubts about a municipality legislating that felons can't pursue certain employment. I understand that the government in general has broad power to legislate the sale of alcohol, but ACC is making "doorperson" a licensed profession. I really really question whether they can do that.
Which brings me to the last point. If I were a bar owner, my reaction would be exactly what is reported in the paper. "screw you, I just won't have a doorperson". There's no legal requirement that I do so. This then throws the underage drinking issue right back into the lap of the ACC, which forever (not just this group) has been loath to direct but effective action against underage drinking by limiting minor's opportunity to engage in such activity.
I said finally, but this is really finally. "The checks are needed because some unsavory doormen accept bribes, sell drugs and let in underage women, Athens-Clarke Police Chief Jack Lumpkin said." Unless doorpeople are recruited from the ranks of the Swiss Guard or the Log Cabin Republicans, there isn't a law in the world that is going to stop a 20 something year old male from letting a good looking nearly 21 something female from doing just about anything she wants to.
It seems I'm not the only person who sees (wealth-oriented) white flight as a problem for urban and suburban communities, but exacerbating the problem is a failure for those who remain behind to purchase and own the land so left. If it's either a power or money vacuum that gets created, then it needs to be filled, and that is going to take a lot more forthright and convicted thinking in our communities. Collective action of the kind that finds its strength through mutual respect and reciprocity at its core. In this sense, provincial thinking is certainly a problem, but not so much the kind that can't stand to see Clarke County services move to Oconee County 'hoods.
But I'm not clear to the common complaint about ACCPD, or even UGAPD, not enforcing underage alcohol laws. If you or someone you know has this perception, can you give me a clue as to why that's the view on it? As it stands, it's already been pointed out that the municipal court in this city is bursting from an overload, as I suspect every court here in the district is. Arresting more drinking kids—leaving for the moment the question of whether or not we also want the cops to make good, constitutional cases—will also swamp the intake at the jail, and that's not a magical place that expands and contracts with the times.
Parallel to what I had just wrote above, unless there is an infrastructure in place with a good and strong foundation, no amount of "getting tough" or "moving forward" will come to fruition beyond words and platitude. You are going to need more cops, more deputies, more cells, more public defenders, more lawyers, more judges, more clerks, or one less culture that celebrates the illegality of the last legal drug.
It seems to me that there really are two separate stories to the Oconee White Flight story: one is the movement from A-CC to Oconee. The other is the revitalization of in-town Athens neighborhoods. It's not a one-or-the-other situation.
Yes, the OC is growing, and some of that growth comes from relocating Athenians (and the businesses that follow the growth). But when you look at what's happened with in-town Athens neighborhoods over the last 10 years, it's difficult to see that Athens is suffering as a result of the Oconee white flight. Oconee County just looks more like affluent Atlanta suburbs, both demographically and politically, while Athens becomes a brighter blue island.
Darren
But I'm not clear to the common complaint about ACCPD, or even UGAPD, not enforcing underage alcohol laws.
Pap.........;
Anyone who says that the police depts. are not actively engaged in enforcing the underage drinking law is misinformed. If anything a disproportionate amount of police resources is diverted to this problem. However police enforcement is just the finger in the dike.
The problem arises with a failure of the collective will of the ACC commission (and on up to the state legislature) to address the problem of underage drinking in a significant manner. As I noted this is a long standing problem, not unique to our current collection of commissioners.
It is a pretty open joke among the legal and law enforcement community that underage drinking is a "profit center" for the local government. The fine is just enough that most of the kiddies can finesse it on their charge card without having to call home and get mommie and daddy involved. The penalties are just low enough that most of the kiddies don't get a lawyer, because a large number of the arrests are illegal. I don't know if you've been around long enough to remember that one city court judge was canned, in part, because her revenue stream from DUI and underage drinking was deemed insufficient.
Now what about this collective will? One must understand that for licensing purposes, there are two categories of pouring licenses, restaurants and bars (and subgroups within that). I'm only addressing bars.
If you want to address underage drinking, then keep them out of the establishments whose sole purpose is to sell alcohol. Every time this remedy is suggested, you get "they come to listen to the music". Yeah, right, buy an Ipod.
This debate comes up periodically, and I always find it amusing when the bar owners say "we're doing everything we can to stop underage drinking", but "if you keep them out, we will go broke".
O.K. so our current mostly hip, with it, group of commissioners is unlikely keep minors out of bars, because of the "music scene".
I have raised the question before, and I'll raise it again because no one has even come close to giving an answer that makes sense. What business do 18-20 year olds have in a BAR between midnight and 2:00 a.m., especially on weeknights. If you are serious about enforcing underage drinking, then take a serious approach to limit the opportunity to engage in the activity. Enforcement on an individual basis by the police is a hit or miss proposition, which impresses the culprits more with its randomness than its punitive aspects.
Limiting access to bars also makes enforcement much easier too, and addresses the randomness. The police have to have some probable cause to inquire into the age of a citizen on the street and whether they have been drinking. This is why you see usually see some other infraction listed with the underage possession. (Although the police fudge on this some, but that's another story.)
If minors are prohibited from being in bars, either totally or after a certain hour, because of the broad powers the government has to regulate the sale of alcohol, the police need no probable cause to "card" everyone in the establishment. They don't need to prove possession (legal speak for drinking). They don't need to prove that the doorperson was bribed or seduced or drugged. They don't need to prove that the owner or bartender did squat. All they need to do is prove that the underage person is where he or she should not be. This procedure is a much more efficient use of the police, and a much much more effective solution to the problem.
The bar owner doesn't get off scot free (hope that is not non-PC). The commission is perfectly free to count underage arrests against the bar owner, and have sanctions at different level. Again we do away with all doorperson and licensing and civil sanction crap, and move against the party with the most financial interest.
The bottom line is that ACC just makes too much money from the sale of alcohol to minors. This income comes in many divers ways, such as the fees from the number of pouring licenses, which is all out of proportion to the population of eligible drinkers. In my cynical opinion it is this combined income stream which creates the lack of will on the ACC commission to take direct affirmative action against the problem of underage drinking.
Darren at 11:38 -- In town Athens is benefiting at the expense of the less urban areas of Clarke county. And those who do not live in town are relocating to adjacent counties.
I have raised the question before, and I'll raise it again because no one has even come close to giving an answer that makes sense. What business do 18-20 year olds have in a BAR between midnight and 2:00 a.m., especially on weeknights.
I need a specific example, because I can't think of any BARS that allow 18 year-olds. Some music venues, on the other hand, do. and should.
As for white flight and whatnot, I doubt ACC is being affected as you seem to be suggesting. In fact, even though the long-term population is as poor as it ever was, the population in general is becoming more affluent. House values in town are skyrocketing, even with the issues we're currently having. Single-family infill sells easily.
I need a specific example, because I can't think of any BARS that allow 18 year-olds.
For licensing purposes, "music venues" that serve alcoholic beverages by the drink are "bars".
House values in town are skyrocketing, even with the issues we're currently having.
Oh really! Can you provide some empirical evidence to support that statement, because it contrary to every survey that's been done, and not supported by sale prices. Especially here on the southeast side the Milford Hills fiasco has actually depressed housing prices. Ask any real estate agent what the average length of time a house is listed in ACC.
I'm not the one pushing white flight from ACC. However I do not deny that there is a flight of a certain segment of the white community from ACC, and that is the rising middle class with school age children. This "darkening" of ACC can easily be verified by referring to school enrollments. Some elementary schools have less than a dozen white children in the whole school. So its not a question of racial balance but an absolute number of children.
I'm not sure what significance I attach to this. However the prevailing official attitude of the ACC commission (and its various planning arms) seems to be "good riddance", and I'm not sure that is a good long term strategy. Especially as far as the schools are concerned, losing that segment of the population that historically has been the most heavily invested in the success of the schools cannot be a good thing.
I agree that there has been a lot of successful infill, and we have the ever present construction of multi-family housing. There is a tendency to point to this as evidence of the "growth" of ACC, and that it is evidence of such cannot be denied. However the evidence does not support the conclusion that the growth is good or robust. After all a wart is growth.
Btw, I meant to add:
Bars do admit minors which is why the ACC commission is getting so twisted about this whole doorperson thing. Were it not for the admission of minors, this whole training and registration exercise would not be necessary.
Stopthebs, I meant that, from talking to the owner of the YWCO, I gathered from the owner that she (the owner) really did try to purchase other space in east Athens.
Oh really! Can you provide some empirical evidence to support that statement, because it contrary to every survey that's been done, and not supported by sale prices:
$518k for 3300 sf ($153/sf) on Nantahala, June 2007
$380K for 2400 sf ($157/sf) on DuBose, June 2007
$215K for 1100 sf ($197/sf) on Natahala, May 2007.
The east side may be train wreck due to the Milford Hills fiasco (although I think it's a stretch to call most of the east side "intown", but come and look at what's happening in the Boulevard area and you will see what Nicki is talking about.
"Some elementary schools have less than a dozen white children in the whole school."
While the above statement is true, the resurgence of in-town Athens will affect these demographic patterns 5-10 years down the road. Maybe I'm just blinded by the people I see and know, but I know of a lot of people who have bought houses in town in the last 5 years or so and who now have children, but those children are not yet school age (just two examples among the conversation here are JMac and myself).
Darren
Let me clarify:
"I know of a lot of people who have bought houses in town in the last 5 years or so and who now have children, but those children are not yet school age . . ."
that should be "I know a lot of people, of various races, who . . "
Darren
Stop the bs said: "Likewise "would allow police to bring civil charges against them for allowing underage drinkers into bars". What is a "civil charge"? I suspect it means a proceeding to revoke the permit that allows them to be employed."
State law only holds the owner and the server responsible. At present even if the doorperson is cited they can't be prosecuted. As I understand it this "civil action" is a way to also make the doorperson responsible and would involve an administrative hearing, a fine if found guilty, and revocation of doorperson permit.
"Which brings me to the last point. If I were a bar owner, my reaction would be exactly what is reported in the paper. "screw you, I just won't have a doorperson". There's no legal requirement that I do so. This then throws the underage drinking issue right back into the lap of the ACC, which forever (not just this group) has been loath to direct but effective action against underage drinking by limiting minor's opportunity to engage in such activity."
Possibly, but then you have to have your servers at the bar spend more time checking IDs. If the bar owners can be pretty certain that everyone in a bar is of age (because they can be sure the doorperson is doing their job) then they can spend more time serving. I guess you could always argue that the bar owner should simply fire the doorperson, but once they've found out what's going on it's usually too late; this will give the doorpeople an incentive to do their job properly, esp. if they know they can't just walk down the street to another bar and get a job.
THE YOUNG WOMEN'S CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION OF ATHENS, GEORGIA, INC is a Georgia non-profit organization, one of those organizations that no one really owns a piece of, and that's especially true for non-profits.
http://corp.sos.state.ga.us/corp/soskb/Corp.asp?467238
YWCO, the non-profit corporation, owns 16.49 acres with an assessed value of $2.3 million.
No person owns or controls the property. The CEO is Dave Hudgins, who is a local lawyer.
Curious minds might want to know who is John Shacke, and why does the Athens YWCO have a registered agent in Commerce.
As noted, it's not that big a deal to me, but there are undeveloped tracts of 25 acres or more along Barnett Shoals Road (Gaines School to Lexington Highway) section with assessed values in the half million range. So you have to wonder how much effort was put into finding an ACC location.
As I understand it this "civil action" is a way to also make the doorperson responsible and would involve an administrative hearing, a fine if found guilty, and revocation of doorperson permit.
That's how I understand it too, except that there can't be a fine in a civil proceeding. You can impose a penalty of some sort, but you can't collect it through penal measures, so BFD. Frankly, without specific legislative authority, I've got real serious reservations about whether ACC can impose a civil penalty.
O.K. so we spend all this time and effort and revoke his permit as a doorman. Bring in the polices and other witnesses, get us a judge, and now the poor boy is banned from life as a doorman. So tomorrow he is a bartender, or valet, or groundskeeper. Or he just leaves town. BFD We're not exactly affecting people's life decisions here.
I'm not knocking the goal, I'm all for it. I'm just seeing this whole permitting, checking, hearing thing as incredibly complex, expensive, and of little real benefit in addressing the problem.
According to our police officials, we don't have the personnel to maintain order downtown now, so where are the resources going to come from for all this enforcement?
If the bar owners can be pretty certain that everyone in a bar is of age (because they can be sure the doorperson is doing their job) then they can spend more time serving.
Isn't this the bar owner's responsibility in the first place. I can't help but observe that some of the "reforms" seem to be at cross purposes. One of the reforms is to hold the actual ownership permanently responsible, and that is the one reform that I wholeheartedly endorse. But now instead of making the owner responsible for the conduct of his employees, the owner is one more level removed from responsibility.
Besides, I'm wondering with what transgressions the doorman will be charged. When that sweet young thing shows him an obviously faked ID, there's no law against letting her in.
I have to come back to my suggestion that the solution is to put limits on when and where minors can be, with the owner ultimately responsible, no excuses. Just one more example of ACC micromanaging by injecting itself into the employer-employee relationship.
"House values in town are skyrocketing, even with the issues we're currently having. Single-family infill sells easily."
I agree 100%. But what about housing and property values outside the loop? Prices are doing the opposite of skyrocketing in many areas of Clarke county.
Misc. thoughs:
Milford Hills and the related train wreck of a fraud case are essentially a monkey wrench in the entire real estate market. It's hard to move houses when literally 100+ houses have been dumped at the tax sale simultaneously, which is what happened following that -- not only houses in Milford Hills but houses belonging to people who were implicated. And of course that debacle cast the value of every home within a comparable distance into question.
That said, the house next to mine went on the market on a Saturday and was under contract on Sunday. A bidding war then ensued between the contract and the close. I have another nieghbor who bought his house ten years ago for $27k and sold it last year for $200K. Real estate is still pretty competitive in Athens -- more competitive than it is in nearly every other town in this state and in most of the nation. And it was ridiculously inflated in recent years -- now it's merely pretty inflated in comparison to other areas.
As for rural areas, property continues to increase in value -- merely at a more modest rate. The only exceptions I can think of are those where the neighborhoods are declining, and those are holding their value.
I don't get the YWCO's decision. What is their mission, anyway? Serve as many affluent families as possible, or what? Because that appears to be what they're doing.
And on liquor, surely you're not implying that the 40 watt, theater, caledonia, and tasty world are serving all the underaged kids? Because I actually think they're least likely to do so. The traditional culprits are unscrupulous establishments that admit only thos over 21 in theory.
Finally, I don't see why we don't have server's licenses. I came from a state that did, and that gave that state a lot of leeway when dealing with violations of the state's pouring laws.
Re: White kids, the stats are available on the ACC web site.
And on liquor, surely you're not implying that the 40 watt, theater, caledonia, and tasty world are serving all the underaged kids? Because I actually think they're least likely to do so. The traditional culprits are unscrupulous establishments that admit only thos over 21 in theory.
I'm not implying anything. Obviously our esteemed leaders perceive a problem with licensed establishments, which includes the "music venues" you mention, serving underage drinkers. Everyone talks about the "bad" establishments, but no one seems to know who they are. I certainly do not claim to be an expert, but there seems to be a lot of finger pointing among the publican community about who are the rogues.
Regardless of whether an establishment is a "bar" or "music venue", if it sells alcohol for consumption on the premises, there is no societal need met by having minors there between midnight and 2:00 in the morning, and very little by having adults there during that time period. Conversely, many societal ills are created by the excessive consumption of alcohol during those hours by those not legally authorized to do so.
Real estate is still pretty competitive in Athens -- more competitive than it is in nearly every other town in this state and in most of the nation.
Do you have any research at all to support that statement? Because I have some that shows that statement to be not true. It would make my neighbor that has had his house on the market for two years feel better if it were true.
$518k for 3300 sf ($153/sf) on Nantahala, June 2007
$380K for 2400 sf ($157/sf) on DuBose, June 2007
$215K for 1100 sf ($197/sf) on Natahala, May 2007.
While I'm sure that there are some properties with exceptional appreciation (and not knowing their intended use) when you look at averages, the picture is not that rosy:
Single family dwellings building permits; (one third less than two years before), average price of new construction in 2006 is 9% less than in 2003:
# 2002: 750 buildings, average cost: $93,700
# 2003: 817 buildings, average cost: $111,200
# 2004: 1137 buildings, average cost: $102,200
# 2005: 772 buildings, average cost: $92,600
# 2006: 463 buildings, average cost: $102,100
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Median price asked for vacant for-sale houses and condos in 2005: $146,800 (lower quartile is $106,700, upper quartile is $199,600)
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From the tax assessors office for 2006:
Increase in Taxable Digest from Last Year due to Real and Personal Property ($328,769,495 ) - 10.4% (3.9% - Growth / 6.5% - Inflation)
Median home sale is $142,900
Most dramatic increase has been in land sales for higher density development
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From Money Magazine
Median home price $161,100 $259,566 (best places)
Home price gain
(2004-2005) 5.60% 9.26%(best places)
(_____________________________________________________________________________________
From the website http://allaboutathensga.com/2007/07/16/athens-georgia-home-sales-statistics.aspx
The good news: Athens, Georgia's housing statistics for the 1st half of 2007 as
compared with the 1st half of 2006 - show signs of being mostly stable in average sales price! (WHOOPEE).
* Five out of 13 areas show minimal change in average sales price.
* Only two out of 13 areas compared show a significant decrease in average sales price.
* Six out of 13 areas show an increase in average sales price. (I'm no mathematician, but I believe that is less than half of the areas with an increase.)
The not so great news: The number of homes sold in the first half of
the year 2007 versus the number of homes sold in the first half of 2006 has decreased in 10 out of 13 areas in and around Athens, GA.
* Six of the areas measured have had over a 20% decline in numbers of homes sold.
* Average Days on the Market have increased significantly in 6 of the areas measured.
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And for the real number wonks, here is a chart by area with 2006 and 2007 sales prices. You will note in some areas the decrease in actual average sales price is as much as 5%.
http://control.cisdata.net/bin/filelink.php/AR175209/c335e432d836537e88b4340f238e2adb/
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You can keep picking out isolated examples to prove how "robust" the ACC real estate market is, but in the immortal words of that great legal scholar, Judge Judy, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
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but I know of a lot of people who have bought houses in town in the last 5 years or so and who now have children, but those children are not yet school age (just two examples among the conversation here are JMac and myself).
Yes, well I see that JMac is doing his part, but what have you done lately?
but those children are not yet school age
Of course you are operating on the assumption that all these folks will put their children in the public schools or remain in ACC when their children reach school age, which certainly isn't the case in our neighborhood.
I'm not implying anything.
Then why concentrate on a solution that pertains to four venues, one of which caters to a distinctly legal crowd?
Obviously our esteemed leaders perceive a problem with licensed establishments, which includes the "music venues" you mention, serving underage drinkers.
What's with the quotes? They are music venues -- that is their primary business.
Everyone talks about the "bad" establishments, but no one seems to know who they are.
On the contrary, we all know who they are. Any establishment which trends to the barely legal, generally including those that lean heavily on the kind of alcohol specials that appeal to the uncritical and/or undiscriminating. Furthermore, a refusal to simply nail those who are acting poorly affects everyone negatively. A great example is the now-defunct 5th Quarter, which is the reason our closing laws are so frickin' stupid. At the time the police openly admitted that they had had NO COMPLAINTS at all from two of the four establishments open after two a.m.
Regardless of whether an establishment is a "bar" or "music venue", if it sells alcohol for consumption on the premises, there is no societal need met by having minors there between midnight and 2:00 in the morning, and very little by having adults there during that time period.
That's a matter of opinion and one I don't share. Those who are underage, but legal adults, are enjoying the same advantage as those in their peer group, which is to say music. As well they should. On rare occasions teenagers are allowed into those same venues, by the way.
Conversely, many societal ills are created by the excessive consumption of alcohol during those hours by those not legally authorized to do so.
...and those legally authorized to do so. Safety is one issue, underages consumption another.
Do you have any research at all to support that statement? Because I have some that shows that statement to be not true. It would make my neighbor that has had his house on the market for two years feel better if it were true.
No research. Merely anecdata and a persistent need to review real estate data. It has been difficult to move houses in most neighborhoods in many of the surrounding towns and in Atlanta for years. It is now difficult to move houses in certain neighborhoods in Athens -- but still not as difficult as elsewhere.
Another few considerations:
1. the more-than-two-unrelated situation, which caused a lot of people to unload investment property which is worth considerably less as property occupied by resident owners.
2. the intentional restriction of construction by ACC and the glut of apartment housing.
What's with the quotes? They are music venues -- that is their primary business.
Nicki;
While you are clearly enamored with the "music venues", and your passion in their support is admirable, they are licensed the same as bars. Any restrictions on bars will (and should) apply to these "music venues" unless the ACC does some radical restructuring of the ordinances, which it has not indicated that it wants to do.
If music is their primary business, then they really don't need those alcohol sales to minors, do they?
Here are the classes of licenses from the ACC ordinances:
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(b) Classes. The licenses shall be divided into the following classes:
(1) Class A, retail liquor package store;
(2) Class B, retail package beer and/or wine;
(3) Class C, retail beer and/or wine by the drink;
(4) Class D, retail liquor by the drink;
(5) Class E, wholesale liquor;
(6) Class F, wholesale beer and/or wine;
(7) Class G, licensed alcoholic beverage caterer;
(8) Class H, brewer, manufacturer of malt beverages; and
(9) Class I, brew pub operator.
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As well they should. On rare occasions teenagers are allowed into those same venues, by the way.
Well now that is a news item. I've been led to believe that the music doesn't really take off until 11:00 p.m., which means that if "teenagers" are in attendance they are violating both local and state law, apparently abetted by the venue operators. Only one more reason to limit access to the licensed premises to those legally permitted to consume alcohol.
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1. the more-than-two-unrelated situation, which caused a lot of people to unload investment property which is worth considerably less as property occupied by resident owners.
Urban myth there. The ordinance was thrown out and never enforced. "A lot of people"? Who are these people?
I do find interesting your conclusion that "investment property" packed full of renters is worth more than resident owned property. It's not called "single family" residential for nothing.
2. the intentional restriction of construction by ACC and the glut of apartment housing.
Where have you seen this intentional restriction of construction? How and where has it been applied? As you note, multi-family housing is seriously overbuilt, and yet it is still being built at a furious pace, which sort of negates the intentional restriction argument. Even one of the commissioners noted at the last meeting the seeming inability of ACC to limit multi-family construction.
Market forces have restricted the building of new single family housing, if you will look at the figures I supplied in the previous post.
"Urban myth there. The ordinance was thrown out and never enforced."
This is not so. It is still on the books and still enforced in single-family 'hoods. What was thrown out was the rental registration program. The County still enforces the unrelated persons, though it's more difficult to do so now --which is what the slumlords wanted when they got the state to pass the pre-emption bill (which was directly aimed at Athens and Roswell).
"I do find interesting your conclusion that "investment property" packed full of renters is worth more than resident owned property. It's not called "single family" residential for nothing."
Yes, it is more valuable as rental than as single family occupied and that's why the county was trying to address the issue. For ex, in my house I pay about $950 a month in mortgage and other stuff (insurance etc) --if I rented it out I could get three folks in here, and even charging them only, say, $320 each a month I'd still come out ahead moneywise; you do the math! Rental houses sell for more than houses that could be acquired by a single family in a single-family 'hood for this very reason --they are money makers. The county had a problem w/ that for two main reasons:
1) it was putting pressure on certain 'hoods (like Univ Heights) to go completely rental
2) it was bidding up the cost of starter homes, making it more difficult for first time buyers to get into the market and thereby contributing to our affordable housing crisis --first time buyers could not compete w/ the speculators who were buying houses to turn them in to rental.
* Six out of 13 areas show an increase in average sales price. (I'm no mathematician, but I believe that is less than half of the areas with an increase.)
Six is triple the two that showed declines so it does indicate that more areas are performing well than are doing well.
Regardless, my argument wasn't that the Athens market was red hot but that many in-town markets remain strong and the in-fill housing in neighborhoods like Normaltown and Boulevard are doing very well. My hunch is that many of the six areas that are doing well are in-town neighborhoods that are experiencing infill development. So I think your numbers support what I, in support of Nicki was trying to say.
"Where have you seen this intentional restriction of construction? How and where has it been applied? As you note, multi-family housing is seriously overbuilt, and yet it is still being built at a furious pace, which sort of negates the intentional restriction argument. Even one of the commissioners noted at the last meeting the seeming inability of ACC to limit multi-family construction."
There is no spec building going on in town now, either single-family or multi-family. The building you see is largely a result of how the financing is done. Developers have to show some progress or the bank will call in their loans --they'd rather make some progress and pay the extra interest than have the loan called in and have to pay the principal back. That's why they are building VERY SLOWLY, hoping the market will pick up. But the building is being driven by the financing mechanisms used (which is related to the national mortgage meltdown we are, but that's another issue).
As to the comments at the last Commish mtg about the development on Atl Hway, that was a Planned Development approved about 5 years ago (Barrow said it was the right devt in the wrong place, or something like that, so that tells you how long ago it was approved). What happened at the Comm mtg last month was that they approved the developer being allowed to change the design (ie layout) of the PD; it did not allow any increase in density. Principally it allowed them to put in more commercial, actually. It's a multi-stage project and I would be very surprised if it's finished anytime soon, due to the state of the housing market. They may start on stage 1 but certainly won't start on the others.
* Six out of 13 areas show an increase in average sales price. (I'm no mathematician, but I believe that is less than half of the areas with an increase.)
Six is triple the two that showed declines so it does indicate that more areas are performing well than are doing well.
Corrected post (I hate proofreading!)
* Six out of 13 areas show an increase in average sales price. (I'm no mathematician, but I believe that is less than half of the areas with an increase.)
Six is triple the two that showed declines so it does indicate that more areas are performing well than are doing poorly.
Regardless, my argument wasn't that the Athens market was red hot but that many in-town markets remain strong and the in-fill housing in neighborhoods like Normaltown and Boulevard are doing very well. My hunch is that many of the six areas that are doing well are in-town neighborhoods that are experiencing infill development. So I think your numbers support what I, in support of Nicki was trying to say.
* Six out of 13 areas show an increase in average sales price. (I'm no mathematician, but I believe that is less than half of the areas with an increase.)
Six is triple the two that showed declines so it does indicate that more areas are performing well than are doing well.
Actually the author (and I by quoting her) misled our faithful readers. Of the 13 areas, only 6 are actually in Clarke County. Of those six areas, 4 had lower average home sales prices in 2007 than in 2006. That is a real estate depression by anyone's definition.
Of the two areas in ACC that showed an increase in value of average home sales, one area the increase was 1% and the other 7%. That hardly qualifies as "skyrocketing values". Yes, there may be a few blocks where values have increased but overall the ACC real estate market is depressed. Even perennially trendy 5-points showed a 2% decline in value.
By way of comparison, the Watkinsville area of Oconee County had a 12% increase in value in the one year.
Where the fertilizer is going to hit the ventilator is when the assessors are forced to factor these declining values into the tax digest.
-if I rented it out I could get three folks in here, and even charging them only, say, $320 each a month I'd still come out ahead moneywise; you do the math!
This really isn't where I want to go, but this is another example of polemic overrunning the facts.
Well I did the math, and call me cynical if you will, I'm doubting that your gross profit of $10.00 a month going to put you much ahead moneywise.
"Well I did the math, and call me cynical if you will, I'm doubting that your gross profit of $10.00 a month going to put you much ahead moneywise."
Of course it wouldn't, but my point is that EVEN AT that low rate of $320 a month it would mean I come out ahead. I don't know where you'd find a place to rent at as little as that, esp if we are talking about renting to UGA kiddies. So, realistically, we'd be talking maybe $500-$600 bucks rent per kiddie per room, meaning I'm potentially bringing in $1500-1800 rent a month. Which first time home buyer can afford to compete w/ that for a mortgage payment, pray tell?
I don't know where you'd find a place to rent at as little as that, esp if we are talking about renting to UGA kiddies.
Apparently your place because you said you would rent it for that, until you realized the numbers didn't work out.
If you're going to keep making up numbers, rent it to them for $1000.00 a month each. But again let me suggest that rather than relying on overwrought hyperbole, we look at what is actually happening the real marketplace:
From our beloved ABH:
AVAILABLE NOW! Brand New 4BR/3BA , close to dwntn, new appls, some pets ok, $1200/mo. 706-255-7038. . . .
3BR/2BA Univ Hts, full bsmnt, wd flrs, FP, CHAC, yard. $895 Note to anon, that is less than you are paying, rent this, rent your house, move into the big time world of property managment
Beautiful 3 Story. 5BR/3.5BA Colonial Home on 40 acres. Tallassee Rd area. $1600/mo. I like the sound of this one myself, can you say "party house"?
3BR/1BA on Milledge. Close to campus. Washer & dryer incl. $1025/mo.
Clarke Co. Rental on Eastside. 3BR/2BA. Great for college students, families & others. $1050/mo.
EASTSIDE for rent, sale or lease purchase. 3 huge BRs/2BA, 2,000 sq ft. 2 story, total electric. $1050/mo
190 WATSON DR, Univ Heights, 3BR/2BA scrn porch, fam rm, liv rm, W/D, $895/mo.
Eastside 3BR/2.5BA at $1095 & Five Points 3BR/2BA at $995 Home, located in well established neighborhoods, HVAC, most pets welcome. Available Now.
and so on.
Again call me cynical, but looks to me that it may be a while before you find 3 students who will pay $5-600 a month for your little piece of heaven, no matter how wonderful you may think it is.
"Apparently your place because you said you would rent it for that, until you realized the numbers didn't work out."
Hi stop the bs. Now you really need to live up to your name :-). As I said before and state again, my point was that I could rent for as little as $320 a month and still walk away $10 better on the deal, as a point of illustration. I did NOT say I would actually rent at that level --if I were to do so (and I have absolutely no interest in so doing, btw) I would probably ask for the $500-$600 rate which seems to be the going rate for a room in some 'hoods from talking to friends of mine who are looking. The point I was trying to make --and perhaps you don't agree, in which case we'll have to agree to disagree-- is that the speculative buying by landlords of what would otherwise be starter homes into which to pack 3-5 students or others means they are sufficiently money-making that a young family earning perhaps $30-40k wouldn't be able to compete in the market for them.
The prices being listed now in the so-fine ABH are AFTER we have had both a bunch of UGA kiddies moved back onto campus by the ever-so-wise UGA AND a collapse in the market which has been going on for about 3 yrs (which is what my realtor friends tell me was when it started to go to hell, according to the MLS data) and is leading people who can't otherwise sell their homes to rent them out at whatever they can get (in other words, we have a glut now which we didn't when the rental reg thing was going on). They were higher relatively a few years ago --it cost me $750 a month to rent a house when I first came to this area 15 yrs ago (maybe I was just ripped off, but that was about the cheapest place I could find and was not nearly as expensive as other houses --I needed a house becuase of canines, but that's TMI).
But, again, even looking at your numbers here, what is being asked is undoubtedly more than the mortgage payment on these things, unless landlords have suddenly got altruistic, which bids up the prices for others at the lower end of the market who are seeking out starter homes on $30-40k.
While you are clearly enamored with the "music venues", and your passion in their support is admirable, they are licensed the same as bars. Any restrictions on bars will (and should) apply to these "music venues" unless the ACC does some radical restructuring of the ordinances, which it has not indicated that it wants to do.
Who let States McCarter in here? Seriously -- you kids get off my lawn! isn't a valid argument.
Drinking is not their primary business. It is an important piece of the puzzle, but it is not why someone goes to the 40 Watt.
If music is their primary business, then they really don't need those alcohol sales to minors, do they?
Patently stupid assumptions here.
If alcohol were their primary business, then why would they close when they don't have a band booked?
All underage drinkers admitted to clubs are not drinking illegally. Why would I pay a cover charge, be stamped or wrapped in a bracelet, and then try to buy illegal alcohol from a venue which is under comparatively high scrutiny? It's expensive and hard, and my chances of success are comparatively low. It's vastly easier to drink in smaller "bars" who employ lax door guys or who might assume you've been checked when the one door guy is away, or in restaurants where you only have to fool the one person waiting on you.
Music venues need patrons, and patrons pay admission fees. They need their core audience, who are mostly college-aged. I'm sure you can imagine what the impact on them would be if they could not admit 3/4ths of their target audience -- and i'm sure you can also imagine the largely unsupervised house parties that would spring up to address the demand.
Well now that is a news item. I've been led to believe that the music doesn't really take off until 11:00 p.m., which means that if "teenagers" are in attendance they are violating both local and state law, apparently abetted by the venue operators. Only one more reason to limit access to the licensed premises to those legally permitted to consume alcohol.
Damn, now that's a stupid assumption. All ages shows are earlier, and they're comparatively rare.
Urban myth there. The ordinance was thrown out and never enforced. "A lot of people"? Who are these people?
Bullshit. They are mostly speculators, and there are fewer of them these days, to the benefit of Athens.
I do find interesting your conclusion that "investment property" packed full of renters is worth more than resident owned property. It's not called "single family" residential for nothing.
My house (2 bedrooms) is worth about $900 in rental (due to its location). It costs me about half that in comparable costs. With four single adults (a.k.a. students) occupying a house you have four incomes, and you are charged with that knowledge in mind.
Where have you seen this intentional restriction of construction? How and where has it been applied?
ACC now actually follows its land use laws, which has resulted in a fair amount of turn downs that wouldn't have happened five or so years ago. Keep in mind that ACC has permits and platting on the books, though, to meet our housing needs for something like the next 30 years.
ACC now actually follows its land use laws, which has resulted in a fair amount of turn downs that wouldn't have happened five or so years ago.
You mean like the Boys Club debacle where blind adherence to their "vision" is going to result in more kiddie condos being built than the developer proposed, with more impermable coverage of the lot in a sensitive area.
My house (2 bedrooms) is worth about $900 in rental (due to its location). It costs me about half that in comparable costs. With four single adults (a.k.a. students) occupying a house you have four incomes, and you are charged with that knowledge in mind.
Have they quit teaching economics in college? Where do you intend to find these single adults, aka students, who are going to pay top dollar for the privilege of sharing a bedroom? Ask your friends about that.
As I said before and state again, my point was that I could rent for as little as $320 a month and still walk away $10 better on the deal, as a point of illustration.
If your point of illustration was that you shared with Nicki a complete estrangement from the basic laws of economics, then your point is well taken. To suggest that tone is "better" because of a gross profit of $10.00 on rental property is bizarre in either a theoretical or practical sense.
All ages shows are earlier, and they're comparatively rare.
You brought it up. Rare though they may be, I'm willing to bet they don't break up earlier enough for the teenagers to be home, secure in their beds by curfew.
Bullshit. They are mostly speculators, and there are fewer of them these days, to the benefit of Athens.
Typical "intown" reaction.
Doubting that you know where many of these are, you should check out the sales in Forest Heights, Green Acres, University Heights (see ads above), Brookstone, and Chamberlin among others where single family housing is being converted to rental housing at an ever increasing rate.
"If your point of illustration was that you shared with Nicki a complete estrangement from the basic laws of economics, then your point is well taken. To suggest that tone is "better" because of a gross profit of $10.00 on rental property is bizarre in either a theoretical or practical sense."
Now you're just being an obstreperous ass :-) Even if it were a lowly $10, it still proves the point about how speculative rentals drive up the price of housing. I believe it is you, my BS friend, who has the tenuous grip on economics.
"Doubting that you know where many of these are, you should check out the sales in Forest Heights, Green Acres, University Heights (see ads above), Brookstone, and Chamberlin among others where single family housing is being converted to rental housing at an ever increasing rate."
This is complete BS, as these neighborhoods have been seeing reduced numbers of rentals in them in the past few years, esp Univ Heights (in all honesty, I can't speak for Chamberlin, as I don;t know it that well, but in the others, where I have friends living, this has certainly been the case).
Now you're just being an obstreperous ass :-) Even if it were a lowly $10, it still proves the point about how speculative rentals drive up the price of housing. I believe it is you, my BS friend, who has the tenuous grip on economics.
Riiiiiight.
LOL.
Good luck with the art history degree.
Actually, I have no interest in art (I'm a heathen) and teach this shit (economics) at this fine institution. Of course, I don't expect you to believe me, but c'est la vie. :-) It's a simple case of supply and demand --the more the demand for speculative housing goes up, the higher the price does. But I guess that's just so much BS to you, right? :-)
You mean like the Boys Club debacle where blind adherence to their "vision" is going to result in more kiddie condos being built than the developer proposed, with more impermable coverage of the lot in a sensitive area.
So it will. But our laws are only as good as their enforcement -- ACC chose not to dilute its land use laws, and this resulted in the owner doing what he was already legally entitled to do. Fine with me.
Where do you intend to find these single adults, aka students, who are going to pay top dollar for the privilege of sharing a bedroom? Ask your friends about that.
There's no bedroom sharing. That's what my house went for two years ago when I rented it out for a year, and that's what my neighbor gets for his house in comparable condition. Incidentally, I think the house in this area are insane -- my tax assessment has tripled since I moved here.
You brought it up. Rare though they may be, I'm willing to bet they don't break up earlier enough for the teenagers to be home, secure in their beds by curfew.
That'd be the teenagers' issue, and usually they start at 8. In other words, you're still incorrect.
Typical "intown" reaction.
Yeah, I suppose. But I do live next to them, so I know. And I'd like to point out that in nearly every neighborhood people have the same reaction unless the amount of rental property remains comparatively low.
Doubting that you know where many of these are, you should check out the sales in Forest Heights, Green Acres, University Heights (see ads above), Brookstone, and Chamberlin among others where single family housing is being converted to rental housing at an ever increasing rate.
I know where all of those are. And?
ACC chose not to dilute its land use laws,
Re: Boys Club tract: ACC chose not to deviate from its land use plan, which is not a law, and which has no binding effect.
ACC choose to blindly rely on its zoning law, resulting in higher density housing and more development on an environmentally sensitive piece of land.
Hooray for blind devotion to idealism.
Actually, I have no interest in art (I'm a heathen) and teach this shit (economics) at this fine institution. Of course, I don't expect you to believe me,
Why not. I believe everything anyone posts on the internet.
It's a simple case of supply and demand --the more the demand for speculative housing goes up, the higher the price does.
Oh really? And is that what the economics department of our flagship university is teaching these days.
Seems to me that I recall that price only goes up in response to increased demand when supply is insufficient to meet the demand. If supply is sufficient to meet the demand, then prices will remain stable, or even decrease as economies of scale and production kick in. Or have those laws changed in the last few years.
As everyone seems to agree that there is an oversupply of rental housing in Athens, the market for rental housing has stabilized, as established by the data I've previously posted (but which some of the posters seem to be adamant about reviewing, seeking instead the advice of their buds at the 40 Watt). Accordingly as supply has kept up with or exceeded demand, there has been no run up in prices due to "speculators", whoever they are.
The average price of a house sold in ACC is flat, at best, and new housing starts are one third of what they were two years ago. Those are universally accepted indicators of economic health, and they are not growing in ACC.
If in fact you were in the rental business, you would know that the rental rates for older units, both single family and multi-family, have flattened due to: (a) the oversupply of newer units and (b)decrease in demand due to the requirement that freshpeople live on campus.
In fact, if you will canvass the ads for rentals which I posted, most of which are in established older neighborhoods, you will see that the amount of rents is less than that projected by traditional formulas for relating FMV to rental income.
Hooray for blind devotion to idealism.
Yeah, we're done. If you can't understand why ACC needs to uphold its laws and related documents, then I doubt you'll understand anything more complicated.
You know, like the alcohol consumption situation in our fair town.
"Re: Boys Club tract: ACC chose not to deviate from its land use plan, which is not a law, and which has no binding effect.
ACC choose to blindly rely on its zoning law, resulting in higher density housing and more development on an environmentally sensitive piece of land."
If you knew what you were talking about you'd know that the developer was applying for a special use permit to not have commercial. State law expressly prohibited ACC from granting it on those grounds. Now, had the developer said he was going to go ahead and build w/ commercial in the tract he wouldn't even have had to come to the Commission --he could have done it by right. The Commission is also expressly forbidden from taking into consideration economic harsdhip in zoning cases --who hasn;t got an economic hardship plea to make? Were they to in fact ignore this they'd be sued before the vote was even inked on the minutes. The reasons the developer gave were not sufficient to overcome STATE LAW.
"As everyone seems to agree that there is an oversupply of rental housing in Athens, the market for rental housing has stabilized, as established by the data I've previously posted (but which some of the posters seem to be adamant about reviewing, seeking instead the advice of their buds at the 40 Watt). Accordingly as supply has kept up with or exceeded demand, there has been no run up in prices due to "speculators", whoever they are."
yes, NOW. But this was not the case prior to 3 yrs ago (when the whole rental reg thing was going on). Since then several things have changed to make speculative building and buying of houses for rental purposes not the deal it was a few years ago --the market is overbuilt (which is why people are not building now on spec --witness Whitehall and a bunch of other places where kiddie condo building has ground to a halt, even though the lots are stubbed out), UGA has brought some of the kiddies back on campus, the mortgage industry has tanked due to overloans, interest rates have increased (except for what the Fed did last week), etc. Or do you not recognize that things change as time passes?
"The average price of a house sold in ACC is flat, at best, and new housing starts are one third of what they were two years ago." Agreed, for the reasons above. But go back again in history to about 3-5 years ago and you'll see there was a lot of spec buying
I'm out of here after this one because it's no use debating someone who has to insult someone who is simply disagreeing with him.
"Seems to me that I recall that price only goes up in response to increased demand when supply is insufficient to meet the demand. If supply is sufficient to meet the demand, then prices will remain stable, or even decrease as economies of scale and production kick in. Or have those laws changed in the last few years."
It seems that someone else needs a lesson in how economics works and is taught. Remember we shift the curves one at a time. You cannot refute the statement "an increase in speculative demand will increase prices" by referring to what happens on the supply side....that's a separate issue. There is no doubt that an increase in spec demand will drive up prices, ceteris parabis.
Now the question of whether prices have risen or not is a question of the relative changes in supply and demand but all that means is that things would be even worse if it wasn't for the spec demand.
If you knew what you were talking about you'd know that the developer was applying for a special use permit to not have commercial. State law expressly prohibited ACC from granting it on those grounds. Now, had the developer said he was going to go ahead and build w/ commercial in the tract he wouldn't even have had to come to the Commission --he could have done it by right.
Wrong and wrong. If state law prohibited it, there would have been no hearing process. Care to give a reference to that law.
He still had to have it rezoned (or converted to a PD) for the multi-use "vision" of the commission. The current zoning is exclusively for multi-family, without any commercial, and that is what the developer intends to build, a whole bunch more apartments than what he originally offered to build. Under current zoning he can't include commercial space if he wanted to.
"The current zoning is exclusively for multi-family, without any commercial"
No it's not, dude. It's currently split-zoned CG (about 10 acres) and RM2 (about 4 acres) and in the airport overlay. He wanted the special use permit because he wanted to be allowed to put residential on the ground floor in the CG portion and have no commercial.
For info on Special Use permits, check Section 9-13-5 of the ACC code, which takes as its lead State law which tells elected bodies when they must sit as quasi-judicial entities rather than as legislative bodies.
"Under current zoning he can't include commercial space if he wanted to"
Not only can he, he is required to --that's why he wanted to get the special use permit, to allow him not to have to do so.
here endeth the lesson!
Next time, check your facts before spouting off, please!
"He still had to have it rezoned (or converted to a PD) for the multi-use "vision" of the commission. The current zoning is exclusively for multi-family, without any commercial, and that is what the developer intends to build, a whole bunch more apartments than what he originally offered to build. Under current zoning he can't include commercial space if he wanted to."
You are only partly right and mostly wrong. The Boys and Girls Club property had split zoning. 3.97 acres was zoned RM-2 and for this bit the developer would need a special use permit to do anything other than residential. However, the fight was over the remaining 10.48 acres that were zoned CG. The CG zoning designation allows a maximum residential density of 24 bedrooms per acre but residential dwelling are (quoting directly from the ACC Zoning ordinance) "permitted only on second story and above.... Multifamily residential uses arranged in any other manner on a commercially-zoned property are permitted only as a special use permit." Thus CG pretty much requires that any multifamily development be mixed-use with commercial on the ground floor and residential limited to the upper floors. There was no need to get a PD.
The developer was proposing building at a density of about 15 bedrooms per acre but wanted a special use permit to be allowed to use the first floor for residential.
forbids residential uses on the first floor (Commercial-General) required the first floor to be commercial and the developer was requesting a special use permit for first-floor residential.
Once he didn't get what he wanted, he simply decided to develop it at the maximum allowable density (24 bedrooms per acre) but he still will not be allowed to use the first floor for residential purposes so will most likely have to include some sort of commercial to be legal.
Sorry to say exactly the same thing as the previous poster, but I was working on my response when their response was posted.
In case you haven't noticed, Prince Avenue Baptist Church won't be on Prince Avenue anymore.
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