This feels wrong
The world hasn't stopped turning, but I do agree with some of James Garland's points here.
While I don't oppose the speed cameras, I do have concerns about equal distribution of them and the fact that we want them to penalize drivers for going five miles over the speed limit. Related to that, I think the community-wide 35 miles per hour speed limit is a bad idea too.
And while I still don't know where I come down on limiting the size of medical offices on Prince Avenue, I do tend to more sympathetic to Garland's rationale on the matter.
James! Talk about reckless spending in the school district or something so we can disagree again!
While I don't oppose the speed cameras, I do have concerns about equal distribution of them and the fact that we want them to penalize drivers for going five miles over the speed limit. Related to that, I think the community-wide 35 miles per hour speed limit is a bad idea too.
And while I still don't know where I come down on limiting the size of medical offices on Prince Avenue, I do tend to more sympathetic to Garland's rationale on the matter.
James! Talk about reckless spending in the school district or something so we can disagree again!
posted by Jmac at 5:18 PM
28 Comments:
Yes . . . now you have seen the power of the Dark Side . . .
Just my opinion here...I like regulation when it has a positive effect. And I think that medical development is in that department. I don't care what size the buildings are -- I care that they're limited to appropriate locations, kept out of neighbohoods, and adhere to community standards (parking, lighting, zoning). And I'd like to point out that the building everyone keeps bringing up was declined because it doesn't fit in the current zoning. The front portion was compliant -- the back portion was not.
So, we can revisit the zoning for commercial property on Prince. But I don't want to hear about how we're being so unfair and NIMBY because we (speaking for the nebulous group of people who agree with me, and not necessarily for BLVD) don't want to set a precedent for rezoning land which was not meant to be high-density commercial. IMO, it would be logical to compromise on the medical issue by designating all of Prince's non-historic property (meaning all non-historic property actually ON PRINCE) to be a higher density, and looking carefully at doing the same for the mostly rental housing area between the hospital and the loop.
That appears to be a rational compromise Nicki.
I don't disagree that some sort of compromise solution may be possible for Prince Avenue. My point was that the first idea to come out of the Commission advocated more restrictive regulation as the solution.
Unfortunately, I feel that such is par for the course regardless of what particular issue is under discussion. While not disparaging the concerns people may have concerning various issues, I remain convinced that NIMBYism is a huge factor in local land use and zoning decisions.
"and looking carefully at doing the same for the mostly rental housing area between the hospital and the loop."
Nicki,do you mean behind the hospital (Talmadge Heights/"King Avenue Area")?
If so, then wow, I guess it doesn't count as a neighborhood if it's on the wrong side of Prince.
Darren
I once asked a guy if Daily Grocery might consider moving to the vacant grocery store in homewood. He said it was too far from the neighborhood.
I responded
"Not my neighborhood"
I know your feeling, Darren.
No, Darren -- I'm referring to the area beyond Poundish/Blvd. Heights streets. (and your assumption is offensive.) While it has what might be good affordable housing, it's pretty recent, pretty low-quality, and the most logical location for regional medical due to its proximity to the loop, 29, and the hospital. Also, let's not forget that we have plenty of former homes now serving as offices that are a) not historic b) on Prince, and c) would gradually be replaced with higher-density commercial if designated as the appropriate place for such, all along the road from Normaltown to the loop. Plus the whole Hawthorne/Sunset corridor, from Prince to Oglethorpe. So there's really no reason we can't meet our needs and make good land use decisions by making the choice to encourage high-density med development in those areas.
Furthermore, "oh hell, let ARMC and our medical industry do whatever they want" isn't good land use or good commerce. There's a good case to be made for ensuring that medical development takes place in a place that works both for Athens and the medical establishment. I've got a vested interest in both -- ARMC saved my husband's life, and I value it highly. I also value my home.
And Snowden, you should have interpreted that statement as "We wish to target our chosen demographic" -- your reaction indicates that perhaps you're not it.
Actually, my membership card is next to Stipe's in the rolodex.
Nice broad brush you're painting with, though. Could come in handy restoring houses in "The Neighborhood".
Also, Nikki the term you are referencing is Psychographic, not Demographic. Demographics are broader measures of ages, income, gender, etc. Psychographics measure things like religious beliefs, voting patterns, perspective on economic issues and other outlooks rather than stable attributes that are measured by Demographics.
What I gather you are trying to say is that I do not share the perspectives of the people who live around in Daily Grocery which I cannot attest to since I don’t know of a valid and reliable analyses of Psychographic data for that area. However, if you really do mean demographic, I doubt you know my income, education level, occupation, wife’s occupation, age and a whole ton of other needed information to make such a statement. I highly doubt Daily would knowing choose to eschew college grads in their early thirties with moderate disposable income. Maybe you know something everyone else doesn’t.
Or maybe you’re just trying to be smug in which case, keep it up.
You make a smarmy comment about "The Neighborhood" and then you have the gall to chide me for smugness? Nice.
Daily was founded by in-town residents, and they are its primary constituents. That's who they choose to serve. Which is a demographic description -- unless, of course, you're suggesting that everyone in those neighborhoods is defined by their beliefs. A notion I find fairly offensive and also inaccurate. I'm sure by moving to Homewood they might serve you better -- but they wouldn't serve their constituency as a whole better since a Homewood location would actually preclude some of their constituency from shopping there, and they wouldn't be fulfilling the secondary aspects of their mission better, either.
So when you say demographic you mean goegrapic location? There is a difference.
I can understand Daily wanting to cater to those in walking distance. The suggestion that they intend on excluding people by demographics, however, is pretty rotten.
Choosing not to cater to is not the same as excluding.
I'm sure they're glad to serve you if you're willing to be served. But evidently they're not willing to move to a place that you feel meets your needs better.
Oh.....okay. It’s not discrimination based on demographic, geographic location or belief structure, it's separate but equal. Well, since you put it that way I guess its okay.
Look at the big picture Nikki. Normal Town has become a giant sucking vacuum of the rest of the city. The grocery store, now warehouse I speak of is in the beloved, bow tied commissioner’s district who also represents normal town. So, why didn't he shit a prius when a major part of a Westside neighborhood that he represents was turned into industrial space the same way he does when it come to design standards in normal town? Because he doesn’t give a shit. And my point in agreeing with Darren is that too many people in certain parts of Normal Town think that they are the only ones that matter. It's a bigger point in how we plot the future of this city.
So, maybe you're right. The people in Athens who feel left out are not being excluded; it's just that those in power don't feel compelled to cater to them.
I'm sure they're glad to cater to the rest of us if we're willing to be served what they're serving. But evidently they're not willing to move to a place that we feel meets our needs better.
For shame.
sticks a fork in snowden
Conflating a private interest with a government entity. Conflating a group of people, who you've misidentified, with government or private business. And you can't even spell my name right. For shame.
now warehouse
I believe it's now a call center.
Nicki,
You slipped and showed that you really think that only some neighborhoods are worth protecting. You got called on it and so you've gone on a little tirade.
I agreed with the poster who questioned your perspective on what areas deserve protection and told an account of dealing with a person who shared that perspective.
So, by all means, try to divert the conversation. Bring up spelling if you like. It doesn’t change the fact that it appears you believe some areas of Athens are more deserving than others.
On the call center, you're part right. The building has been split in half. Part is dial America and the other half is storage for Lee Epting Catering. I imagine your point must be that westsiders don't have it that bad since it's only half warehouse and the other half is a call center.
So there it is. You offer up that the grocery store is not all warehouse, part of it is a call center. Then you start whining about the design of medical buildings on Prince Ave. That is, as you're on the right side of it, right?
I did no such thing, Snowden. And I won't argue with someone who has been baiting me all along and isn't arguing in good faith, plus seems unable or unwilling to understand my argument.
For the record, you have no idea what I think of Homewood Hills, who my commissioner is, or what I think of any project other than the medical building we were discussing earlier.
What I have advocated for is a reasonable balance between the neighborhoods and the economic interests of normaltown. Something I've advocated for in other areas of town, for the record, including areas of town most people are afraid to set foot in and the east side. Which has jack to do with whether or not Daily groceries wants to abandon its core constituency to serve you.
Hey Nicki,
I apologize that I offended. I wasn't sure what you meant, so I posed it as a question. In that sense, I don't think I made an assumption (note the "if so . . "). Thank you for the clarification.
As I stated in another discussion on this blog, I think you and I agree about much more than we disagree regardingthe direction of the Prince corridor. For example, your paragraph that ends with this:
"So there's really no reason we can't meet our needs and make good land use decisions by making the choice to encourage high-density med development in those areas . . " I agree with most of the examples you cite there.
I thought your shorthand was vague (hey, it led me to see more than one interpretation). I appreciate the clarification.
Snowden,
Thanks for the defense. Nicki's pre-clarification comments could have been construed one way, and that's why I asked the question. The perspective that I thought she MIGHT have been exhibiting would be one worth calling out. Your calling out of such an attitude is spot on. I think that Nicki serves as an inappropriate stand-in for such perspective, however, as she has disavowed such an attitude. I say we take her comments at face value. Thanks again, though, for the defense.
Darren
For clarity's sake, I do believe the DialAmerica Call Center is only temporarily there. Granted it would be nice to land a nice grocery store there - I'm not sure about the Co-Op as that's a rather large space for a rather small operation - but something such as a Whole Foods, EarthFare or Fresh Market would work well there. Particularly with the new development over there.
Of course, it isn't as if the Call Center isn't providing jobs, just not jobs and services ... aside from annoying phone calls.
Thanks, Darren.
As for Homewood Hills...I'm one of few people who really does use all of Prince Ave. I live at one end, have a farm at the other, and do the vast majority of my shopping and dining along its length. In Bell's and Daily and Shiraz and La Jalisco and Lee's and so on. My friends own a series of shops and businesses along its length, as well. And ARMC is most definitely my hospital -- my husband spent 6 weeks there in 2000, and I have given them both money and time this year in support of the Loran Smith Center and their foundation.
I want to see Prince developed logically because I travel it, and I live and work and in general exist on it. I don't think that's impossible, and I think that name-calling is counterproductive.
Anyway...Homewood Hills has some challenges. Notably, it's a funky mixture of the prurient (Savannah's, Foxz's) and the premium (DePalma's, The Cellar, Red Racket). It's probably doing o.k. financially -- in fact it has more stores now than it did when the grocery was there -- but it lacks the anchor that should be there. Which is not its fault -- and neither are the factors that keep that space empty. Whole Foods has looked at that location -- so have others. They all tell us that Athens has too many grocery stores, and that neighborhood is adequately served by their competitors. I'd like a premium grocery store there, but I'm a great example of who they're talking about because I will drive to Kroger or Publix for premium product. That's a car-driven development, and most people with cars find a mile or two to be worth it.
I contacted Whole Foods who said the space was not big enough. I also called Naturally Fresh who said they are not expanding this way right now. A community market of our own local businesses, however, could be a concept worth exploring. If Jittery Joes, Gosford Wine, Athens Seafood, A local Butcher, and a few of the local farms joined forces on such a venture, it would not only be a great destination for Athens citizens but it could also serve as an attraction to people in outlying counties.
As far as jobs go, the call center ones are pretty terrible. The pay sucks, there is essentially no advancement and they have a knack for working people just under the amount of hours where they could qualify for benefits. I think Athens has enough of those jobs already.
I think Athens has enough of those jobs already.
Yeah, and these are it. This call center relocated from another location.
You may not want a certain type of job. You may not think a certain type of job is an optimal type for our town to be attracting. But those who hold them are generally not suitable for other forms of employment at this juncture, and are already struggling for fewer jobs than there are people available to hold them. Furthermore, the choice referenced above is to maintain those jobs or lose them.
P.S. I don't get why someone who seems to be advocating for not intervening in the free market when it applies to Prince Avenue seems to want intervention when it applies to a largely occupied shopping center which is merely not occupied by his idea of an appropriate client.
"But those who hold them are generally not suitable for other forms of employment at this juncture."
Wow. That's a big comment. These low paying, sans benefits jobs are a big contributing factor to poverty in Athens. I cannot believe that your deduction of the situation is that the people stuck in these jobs are not suitable for better paying jobs with benefits.
As for your intervention comment I think you should answer your own question. Why do you support the Nannying of development on Prince but don't really seem to care when it come to another neighborhood losing it's central commerce area.
Here's why I feel the way I do. I think too much time and energy is spent on Prince Ave and it's marque neighborhoods at the expense of issues and citizens elsewhere. I'm not asking for the shopping center to be regulated- I'm saying our goverment could be proactive in the recruitment, or even development, of a new grocery store.
Wow. That's a big comment. These low paying, sans benefits jobs are a big contributing factor to poverty in Athens.
JMac, you'll have to tell me if this doesn't accord with your experience, but for the clients I've dealt with who are homeless or very close to it, a job at Haband or Burger King is an improvement over no job. It is not optimal, but it is wage earning, and it is wage earning in a way that is attainable for someone who is not yet equipped to go get a job with benefits, and would have to fight with better-equipped applicants to get said better job. Also, these non-optimal jobs aren't stopping us from having better jobs, so claiming that they are the reason for poverty is bogus. It's the lack of alternate opportunities and stepping stone opportunities for comparatively unskilled workers that are the primary causes of poverty in this community.
Why do you support the Nannying of development on Prince but don't really seem to care when it come to another neighborhood losing it's central commerce area.
I don't, as I made clear. Why do you continually accuse me of things I did not say and do not believe? Also, good land use isn't nannying. It's setting the rules for success.
Here's why I feel the way I do. I think too much time and energy is spent on Prince Ave and it's marque neighborhoods at the expense of issues and citizens elsewhere.
That's rich. You think it's too much effort to ensure that people's homes are protected and the medical center develops appropriately, and yet not enough government intervention is being put forth to shape a private shopping center to the affluent model you'd prefer.
P.S. By your standards neither the hospital area nor homewood are my neighborhood.
Or your "Demographic". Right?
Well, they're not in my census tract or governed by my commissioner.
And I'll take a lecture on the use of "demographic" (which, by the way, includes all the uses I put it to) when you learn to spell.
JMac, you'll have to tell me if this doesn't accord with your experience, but for the clients I've dealt with who are homeless or very close to it, a job at Haband or Burger King is an improvement over no job.
Yes. It's marginal, and Jeff's right in saying we lack a good number of jobs that feature good benefits, but one of the primary challenges is a lack of a trained workforce. We've got a very high dropout rate and, until lately, little opportunities to expand vocational training to this population.
And, yes, this is a problem that we encounter regularly with IHN of Athens.
So I didn't take Nicki's comment to be disparaging, but more reflective of the realities of the situation ... realities that, hopefully, are beginning to change.
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